STEPHAN KRAMER, Director, domestic intelligence, Thuringia:
They were very dangerous. They were very well prepared. We're not talking about some amateur warriors. We're talking about people that are really trained in using weapons.
EVAN WILLIAMS, Correspondent:
In the fall of 2022, German intelligence chiefs were secretly monitoring a suspected far-right plot to overthrow the government.
THOMAS HALDENWANG, Director-General, domestic intelligence:
[Speaking German] Plans had been forged to set up a new government. There was even a military arm within this group, consisting of officers of the German army and members of the police force.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The surveillance operation was focused on a wealthy German aristocrat, Heinrich Reuss, who was thought to be one of the ringleaders.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
We were following him very closely to find the right moment before they could do what they were actually trying to execute, but having enough on our plate for criminal charges that we could press against them.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
But according to German intelligence, Reuss kept putting off his plans at the last minute—for a bizarre reason.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
He had some spiritual leaders who were looking for the stars and the right connection to start their whole maneuvers. Probably three, four times when they were almost becoming to get ready, they claimed like, "Oh, the stars are not right today, so we have to cool down and start again." And we were just getting really nervous because up and down, and you have to have all the countermeasures in place.
At the third or fourth time, we were in action. We took them out.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
German authorities have foiled an alleged plot that aimed to topple the government in Berlin by force.
MALE NEWSREADER:
Twenty-five people, including a soldier and a judge, were detained after police—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
After months of surveillance, around 3,000 police officers and German special forces across 11 states carried out a series of coordinated dawn raids.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
—and these arrests are a remarkable demonstration of how potent and dangerous far-right ideologies are all across the globe.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
It sounds like a crazy story, but the point is, it was very real and it was very dangerous, and we took them out before they could do any harm. But this is only one group who plans plots like this. We had many others before.
MALE NEWSREADER:
Germany is in shock after an antisemitic attack on a synagogue in the—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Over the past decade, Germany has faced a wave of far-right violence and plots against Jews, Muslims, immigrants and politicians.
BJÖRN HÖCKE, AfD leader:
[Speaking German] Here in Thuringia the AfD will not integrate illegal immigrants, not today, not tomorrow, not ever.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
At the same time, support has soared for the far-right party the AfD—Alternative for Deutschland.
AfD SUPPORTERS [chanting]:
[Speaking German] Join us. Join us.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
I came here back in 2021 as the AfD was gaining ground in parts of Germany and fears about extremist violence were increasing.
I returned in 2024 to speak to intelligence officials, victims of far-right violence and the AfD politician Björn Höcke, who’s on the brink of an historic election victory in eastern Germany—
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Politics will improve when the AFD is in power. This country will become more free.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
—and to investigate the AfD’s vision for Germany amid accusations that the party has provoked violence.
PROTEST BANNER [in German]:
"Remigration now!"
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS, Member of parliament, Thuringia:
If we want to live in democracy in 10, 15 years, we have to act now. There's no time to wait anymore.
April 2024
Schwerin, northern Germany
STEPHAN KRAMER:
We have a principle in Germany which is called "defense of democracy." It comes out of the ideas and experiences that we had with Nazi dictatorship. Remember, Hitler and his Nazi NSDAP were elected into power. They didn't do a revolution. People voted for the Nazis to take over the power.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Stephan Kramer is the domestic intelligence chief in the German state of Thuringia and is himself Jewish. His agency was set up after World War II to monitor extremist threats to democracy. Today he’s come to northern Germany to meet city mayors and deliver a warning about the growing strength of the AfD—
MALE SPEAKER:
[Speaking German] You have the floor, please go ahead.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
—which is now the second most popular political party in the country.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
[Speaking German] Right-wing extremists are on the move. Extremism is essentially anything that is directed against the liberal democratic order. What we are currently experiencing is not just theory. It’s a hard fact that in the last 10 years the New Right has managed to conquer various social spheres in our society.
[Speaking English] Everybody is very concerned that our defense of democracy is on the edge. The New Right, the AfD, is explicitly acting against our principles of the federal constitution. This is exactly a situation that we would have never thought would occur after what we've learned in '33 to '45. And here we are.
[Speaking German] I'll be frank with you. They threatening our right to human dignity. Threatening the independence of the judiciary. Threatening our freedom of expression and freedom of assembly.
[Speaking English] We had a blood trail of right-wing extremist terrorism, and people killed.
Terrible things, but nevertheless, none of them was so dangerous to our constitution, to the fundamental pieces of our society, as they are right now.
Look, the Germans did not invent antisemitism, but they invented Auschwitz. And this is something that we should always keep in mind.
ADOLF HITLER:
[Speaking German] —the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
For almost 80 years, Germany has worked to overcome its Nazi history. Since 2015 it’s become a global leader in welcoming refugees, taking in more than a million people fleeing conflicts across the world.
ANGELA MERKEL:
[Speaking German] The world sees Germany as a place of hope and opportunity, which wasn’t always the case.
PROTEST BANNER AT AfD RALLY [in German]:
"We are the red line."
EVAN WILLIAMS:
But the influx has had unintended consequences.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Mass immigration to Germany is the burning question of our time.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
A rise in anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim sentiment.
ANTI-IMMIGRATION PROTESTERS [chanting]:
[Speaking German] We are the people. We are the people.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The AfD stoked those fears and won millions of new supporters.
PROTEST BANNER AT AfD RALLY [in German]:
"Our country first!"
EVAN WILLIAMS:
And Germany was hit by a series of far-right terror attacks. In the summer of 2019, pro-refugee politician Walter Lübcke was murdered by a neo-Nazi gunman.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
—what’s believed to be Germany's first far-right political assassination since World War II.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
And four months later, on the Jewish religious holiday of Yom Kippur, more bloodshed, this time in the city of Halle.
CHRISTINA FEIST:
A few people I knew were traveling from Berlin to Halle, a place I didn't even know exactly where it was, to celebrate Yom Kippur in a smaller community, and I was happy and curious.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Christina Feist, then a postgraduate student, was one of around 50 Jewish worshippers in Halle’s synagogue that day.
CHRISTINA FEIST:
We had actually started reading from the Torah. A friend of mine was seated in front of me, and I remember hearing this, like, bang. And for a split second, I remember this, I thought, this is a terror attack, we should all get down.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
A gunman was trying to shoot his way into the synagogue.
CHRISTINA FEIST:
There was a video camera taping what was happening in the street. And I looked at the screen. And that is actually—that is what really gets me, even today. I saw a person, a human being, lying on the floor, outside. And I was like, "What's happening? Is this person dead?"
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The gunman failed to break through the locked door but shot dead two people who happened to be nearby.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
At least two people have been killed in a shooting near a synagogue in the east German city of Halle.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The attacker, a 27-year-old named Stephan Balliet, had planned to murder everyone in the synagogue. At his trial, a prosecutor described his plan to massacre Jews as "one of the most despicable acts of antisemitism in Germany since World War II."
MALE NEWSREADER:
There is concern about the size, shape and scope of extremism in the country.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
When I came to Germany shortly after the synagogue attack, I was told it was just the tip of an iceberg.
MARTINA RENNER:
[Speaking German] In the last few years, there have been fundamental changes in the extreme right. We have a significant increase in right-wing crime and violence, and we are seeing more and more of these crimes being committed using weapons and explosives.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Martina Renner is a lawmaker and anti-fascism campaigner who sat on a committee in the German parliament looking into extremism.
MARTINA RENNER:
[Speaking German] There is a change in the perpetrators. There are more and more people emerging who are from the security services, such as active and retired soldiers or policemen. And today there are also craftsmen, insurance brokers, local politicians, lawyers and they lead completely inconspicuous lives. When it comes to their strategic goals, almost all of them believe that the time has come, that democracy is nearing its end.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Support for the far right is particularly strong in the state of Thuringia. Formerly a part of communist East Germany, in recent years it’s become an AfD stronghold.
I came here back in 2021 to meet someone who was investigating online extremist networks.
Hi, Katerina?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Hi!
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Hello, it's Evan. How are you?
At the time, Katerina Koenig-Preuss, a lawmaker in the Thuringia state parliament and a prominent anti-fascism activist, was secretly infiltrating and monitoring far-right social media groups.
Talk me through what are you seeing.
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Black people, I’ll take them as "brennholz."
EVAN WILLIAMS:
"Black people, I’ll take them as firewood."
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Yes, "I’ll take them as firewood." And, Hitler.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
With a picture of Hitler. Ku Klux Klan. Heil Hitler.
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Anne Frank. So it’s written, [speaks German] "Fresh from the oven."
EVAN WILLIAMS:
"Freshly baked from the oven," over a picture of Anne Frank?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Yes.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Wow. And you think there are thousands, possibly tens of thousands of people sharing this material?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Yes. It started with Facebook, and now most of the groups are Telegram. Some WhatsApp groups.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
What sort of thing are they discussing?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
[Speaking German] There are groups that solely discuss how to make Germany a “purely white” country. [Speaking English] I’d say in 10 to 20 groups they talk about the terroristic attacks that we had in Germany, in Halle, and Mr. Lübke. They talk about if it’s OK or not OK. Talk about—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Do they say it’s OK?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
They say it's OK. Especially Halle.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Where they attacked the synagogue?
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
Yes, but it’s like, you know—when Halle happened, they started to discuss, and the most they discussed was why he just killed two people. And it was something like, “If I would do that, I would kill more. I would kill hundreds." They support it. And by supporting it, they give the signal to people in that groups "Do it. It’s OK to do it."
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Four months after Halle, in February 2020, there was another far-right attack, this time in the city of Hanau.
ARMIN KURTOVIĆ:
[Speaking German] The first victim of the attack was in here. Then the perpetrator comes out of here and shoots dead the second victim. Then he goes to the hookah bar, opens the door and shoots dead the third victim. Then he goes to his car. He goes to the kiosk, then to the Arena Bar. He shoots three people.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Armin Kurtović’s son Hamza was in the Arena Bar, the gunman’s next target.
ARMIN KURTOVIĆ:
[Speaking German] He knew what kind of people went there. People with a migrant background.
Then he comes in and executes two people: Said Nesar Hashemi and my son. He shot my son once in the arm and once in the head, here.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Nine people were shot dead, all of migrant background. Six of them were Muslim. The killer returned to his home where he shot his mother, then himself.
TOBIAS RATHJEN [on video]:
If you don’t believe the following, you better wake up, quick. In your country exist so-called—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
In the weeks before the shootings, Tobias Rathjen posted a video of himself repeating wild conspiracy theories and an online manifesto. He ranted against immigrants, saying Muslims should be wiped out of Germany.
ARMIN KURTOVIĆ:
[Speaking German] What more should the attacker have done? He had a website. The manifesto was online for two weeks, the video confession for one week. It’s not like he came out of the woodwork and no one knew anything. He was revealing himself. He was screaming, "Stop me." He never made his racism a secret.
FAR-RIGHT POLITICIAN [on radio]:
[Speaking German] Imagine the number of violent acts if we had more foreigners. Therefore, it’s important that we go out on the streets and say we don't want that.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Armin told me he believed that the killer was motivated by hateful rhetoric from Germany’s far-right politicians.
ARMIN KURTOVIĆ:
[Speaking German] The speeches are Islamophobic and hostile to humanity. It is pure dissemination of Islamophobia. Pure dissemination.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] AfD, no to the mosque.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The killings in Hanau increased scrutiny on the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the AfD, which by then was the third-biggest bloc in the German parliament.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] In Thuringia, there shall be no welcome culture for illegal immigrants, only a farewell culture. Period.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The AfD officially condemned the Hanau and Halle attacks and rejected that the killers were motivated by their rhetoric. But the party was already on the radar of Germany’s domestic intelligence.
THOMAS HALDENWANG, Director-General, Domestic intelligence:
[Speaking German] The AFD is a party in which there are many members and functionaries who repeatedly spread hatred and incitement against various minority groups.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Thomas Haldenwang is director-general of Germany’s national domestic intelligence.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] The state must not get involved in producing ideology.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Three weeks after the Hanau attack, his agency formally classified a radical faction of the AfD known as "The Wing" as a right-wing extremist threat to democracy. The Wing was placed under government surveillance, along with its leader, Björn Höcke, who was also head of the party in Thuringia. The AfD soon dissolved The Wing, but eventually the entire party in Thuringia was classified as extremist.
THOMAS HALDENWANG:
[Speaking German] The political arm of right-wing extremism is becoming ever stronger. The New Right, as we call them, ostensibly distance themselves from the violence but provide the underlying ideology for right-wing extremists of all persuasions.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Björn Höcke rarely speaks to the foreign media. But in March this year, he agreed to an interview at an AfD event in Thuringia.
He has repeatedly rejected the charge that the AfD is extremist or that it stokes violence and accused the intelligence services of trying to suppress legitimate opposition.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] We don't have a problem with right-wing extremism in Germany. Or rather, we only have a very small problem with right-wing extremism. In Germany, our main problem is government extremism, with a government intent on destroying its opposition. With a government that pursues policies against its own people by wanting to "multi-culturalize" its people with millions of illegal immigrants.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Domestic intelligence is monitoring you and your party because they say you’re an extremist threat to democracy.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Look, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution is a domestic intelligence service, which, in its conception, is unique in the Western world. This domestic intelligence service is a government protection agency. It’s not there to defend the constitution, but it protects the government. This Office for the Protection of the Constitution must be reformed, because it jeopardizes democracy in Germany.
2014
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The AfD wasn't always criticized as extremist.
AfD SPEAKER:
[Speaking German] Unemployment is much higher. So not a single problem has been solved. In fact some have in part worsened.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
In its early days, it campaigned on a platform of conservative economic policy and opposition to the European Union.
PROTEST SIGN [in German]:
"No to the E.U. and Euro-madness!"
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER, Der Spiegel:
The AfD basically started as a Euro-critical party,
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Ann-Katrin Müller covers the AfD for the investigative magazine Der Spiegel.
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER:
Lots of people thought they were conservative in the beginning. You couldn't see when you looked at them that they had right-wing extremist ideas as well, implanted in it. And over the last decade, that changed with the AfD. If you listen to what the leading people of the party say, then it's clear where they want to go.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] Migrant violence against Germans has become a horrific new normal.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
After the influx of refugees in 2015, the AfD began espousing anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim rhetoric, and their popularity shot up.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] I can tell you one thing, burqas, girls wearing headscarves and government-supported men carrying knives, and other ne'r-do-wells will not secure our prosperity, our economic growth and least of all, our welfare state.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
On the national stage, co-leaders Alice Weidel and Tino Chrupalla have consistently spoken out against immigrants but are still viewed as the more moderate voices of the party.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Long live our homeland, Thuringia. Long live our German fatherland.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
It’s Björn Höcke who is widely regarded as the AfD’s most influential figure.
KAI ARZHEIMER, Mainz University:
Björn Höcke is extraordinary within the AfD because he is really a quite old-fashioned right-wing extremist. He's not just a radical. He's not just opposed to immigration. He is really one who favors rewriting German history.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] We Germans, our people, are the only people in the world to have planted a memorial of shame in the heart of its capital.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Höcke is a former history teacher who for years has been pushing the boundaries of political speech. In 2017, he criticized Berlin’s Holocaust memorial, arguing that Germany should reverse the way it remembered its past.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] We need nothing less than a 180-degree turnaround in the politics of remembrance. [applause]
KAI ARZHEIMER:
He talked about the Holocaust memorial in Berlin as a sign of shame in the heart of the nation. He's obsessed with history.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Kai Arzheimer, a political extremism expert, has studied Höcke’s rhetoric about German history.
KAI ARZHEIMER:
He is engaged in whitewashing what the Nazis did, basically. Remembrance culture is the idea that the crimes of the Nazis must never be forgotten and that we should educate future generations in the knowledge that Germany in the past has committed those atrocities, to safeguard our future. Basically, that's the idea. But what Höcke wants is this 100-degree reversal.
Holocaust Memorial, Berlin
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Höcke’s statements about the Holocaust memorial were widely criticized, including by some members of his own party. Amid calls for him to be expelled from the AfD, he stated that he had made a "mistake" and that he‘d learned "many lessons."
But he continued to court controversy. In 2021, Höcke gave a speech which included a slogan used by the Nazis: "Everything for Germany."
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Everything for our homeland. Everything for Saxony-Anhalt. Everything for Germany.
PROTEST CROWD [chanting]:
[Speaking German] There is no right to Nazi propaganda.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Under German law, the phrase is illegal, and Höcke was charged with knowingly using a Nazi slogan. He later called the Nazi era "horrific" but claimed he wasn’t aware of the slogan’s history.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] In a few months, I will be facing the criminal courts of Saxony-Anhalt because I once closed an election speech—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Then he did it again.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Everything for our homeland. Everything for Saxony-Anhalt. Everything for—
CROWD:
Germany! [applause]
STEPHAN KRAMER:
He went to Gera in front of a public audience and he made everybody scream "All for Germany" after he already knew that he was on criminal charges for this. Look, any misunderstandings? Oh, he didn't know what that means? Let me remind you he is a history teacher, a certified history teacher, and he knows damned well what this phrase means.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
You've been charged with issuing a Nazi comment, "Everything for Germany." You've been charged with a criminal offense, because that's a crime. It's a Nazi saying.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] You are absolutely right. Freedom of expression in Germany is very severely restricted. In a campaign speech expressing love for my country and urging compatriots to give everything for Germany in its current volatile position is not a Nazi slogan.
Trump once said "America first." And I think it's perfectly legal and perfectly legitimate to demand the same for Germany, and that's akin to what I did. That's in no way a crime or a criminal offense.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Shortly after our interview, Höcke was found guilty and fined more than $30,000.
MALE NEWSREADER:
Germany says it has foiled a far-right plot to overthrow the government.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
More than 3,000 officers took part in early morning raids.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
When news broke in late 2022 of the alleged plot to overthrow the government, fears about the AfD’s links to extremism intensified.
MALE NEWSREADER:
This is a very fringe movement, potentially a very violent movement.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Within hours of the arrests, details began to emerge about the alleged plotters.
Heinrich XIII, Prince of Reuss, an aristocrat from Thuringia who the authorities say was a ringleader, had a history of promoting antisemitic conspiracy theories.
Worldwebforum
PRINCE REUSS:
The representatives of the Rothschild dynasty are proud of the fact that they financed the French Revolution and countless other acts of aggression such as wars around the globe.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Reuss and the other suspects were alleged to belong to a disparate movement with thousands of followers known as the "Reichsbürger"—citizens of the Reich—
PRINCE REUSS:
I plead in favor of a sovereign Germany.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
—who refuse to recognize the modern German state. Many Reichsbürger are regarded as harmless, but domestic intelligence officials say some of them are far-right extremists, including the alleged plotters.
THOMAS HALDENWANG:
[Speaking German] They were people from a wide range of backgrounds. There were former soldiers, police officers. There were doctors and lawyers among them. There was also an AfD member of parliament.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
According to intelligence officials, AfD politician Birgit Malsack-Winkemann was at the center of the conspiracy.
BIRGIT MALSACK-WINKEMANN:
[Speaking German] Could a government possibly treat its entrusted citizens any worse?
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER:
She had been a member of the Bundestag, and in the party she was quite well connected.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] I want to thank you for your great work, Mrs. Malsack-Winkemann.
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER:
She had meetings and public events with Alice Weidel, for example, the party leader. So, yes, the AfD was right in the middle of the Reichsbürger plot.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Prosecutors allege that Winkemann was to become justice minister for Prince Reuss’ new government and had helped prepare the plan for storming the German parliament.
THOMAS HALDENWANG:
[Speaking German] The AfD member of parliament helped them determine the interior layout of the building to such an extent that the executing forces had a clear plan of how to storm it and which corridors they had to use. Their plan was to arrest the members of the federal government from their benches in parliament and then possibly to assassinate them.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
More than 20 suspects face trial on charges of terrorism and treason. All of them have denied the charges.
Prince Reuss’ lawyer conceded he had met with other suspects and discussed politics, but denied he was a ringleader of a planned coup.
Birgit Malsack-Winkemann admitted to prosecutors being part of the group and guiding some members through the Reichstag but denied it had terrorist plans.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] Should it be confirmed that she took part in this, it would of course lead to a party expulsion.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The AfD’s co-leaders condemned the plot and promised to expel Winkemann from the party if she was found guilty. But they also criticized the authorities for overreacting.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] It’s alarming and shameful to see what’s going on in Germany, that we have such a large raid with an unprecedented number of 3,000 officers ordered to send pensioners away.
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER:
The party leaders went in front of cameras and were pretending that it's just old people who wouldn't be able to do anything, so it was kind of laughable.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] It’s scandalous.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
It's not a funny thing. It's not even a funny story, because they were very dangerous. They were very well prepared. Of course, they wouldn't have overtaken Germany, overthrown the government, the federal government, everybody, but it would have been probably a very bloody attack on our governmental institutions.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The Reichsbürger plot did nothing to dent the AfD’s popularity. In 2023, they won a series of local election victories, polling over 30% in Thuringia.
MALE NEWSREADER:
Support for the Alternative for Germany is higher than ever before in their 10-year history.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
The AfD is current polling at around 19% nationally. The party expects substantial gains in state elections next year.
AfD PROTEST POSTERS [in German]:
"Americans are not our friends! Russians are not our enemies! We Germans are still not free!"
"This is what your gas station could look like."
"Our country first!"
EVAN WILLIAMS:
They had been capitalizing on widespread concern about a new influx of refugees, this time from Ukraine, as well as inflation, the cost of living and the government’s expensive green energy policies.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Millions of Germans will no longer be able to afford their energy bills. German industry is losing more and more of its competitive edge every day.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
And alarm about the AfD’s rising power was about to take on a new urgency.
MALE NEWSREADER:
In the eastern state of Thuringia, one voter in three now backs the AfD.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
So, the evidence.
JEAN PETERS, Correctiv:
The evidence is here.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
That fall, journalists from investigative news site Correctiv were tipped off about a secret far-right meeting, to be held in this hotel outside the city of Potsdam.
JEAN PETERS:
So here's the hotel, right. This is a shot from there.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
And that was a useful angle?
JEAN PETERS:
Yes, very much so. This is how we got all the pictures.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Correctiv journalist Jean Peters helped lead an undercover investigation along with activists from Greenpeace. Shortly before the meeting, he checked in to the hotel pretending to be a regular guest.
JEAN PETERS:
I was the only guest [laughs], as far as I know, apart from the others from the meeting. And they were a bit surprised. "Why is he here?" We had cameras from outside, two cars. Me inside—I had a watch with a camera inside.
So this is actually the guy who's leading the party in Saxony-Anhalt. This is Ulrich Siegmund.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
AfD?
JEAN PETERS:
Yes, AfD.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
So this is important evidence that these people did actually attend the meeting.
JEAN PETERS:
Yes.
There I saw some letters on a table with names on it, so I knew I need this; I need the names. So I was turning around, was saying hello, shaking hands. There was a guy from the conference, I'm like, "No, I'm just a guest." Turned around again, took my phone and filmed these letters.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Peters and his team collected the names of around two dozen people. They included businessmen and known far-right extremists, as well as conservative politicians and senior members of the AfD.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Must have been pretty nerve-racking.
JEAN PETERS:
Yes, this was my adrenaline moment. All this, this is—we look into this place, right?
EVAN WILLIAMS:
According to accounts gathered by the Correctiv team, the attendees went on to discuss a plan for the mass deportation of immigrants—even those with German citizenship.
JEAN PETERS:
It was literally a master plan for deportation, as I would say—they call it "remigration"—of millions of people, including people with a German passport.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The meeting’s main speaker was Austrian far-right activist Martin Sellner.
MARTIN SELLNER:
[Speaking German] At a certain point a democratic majority could vote for a Sharia-like administration.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
According to Correctiv, he proposed that Germany expel millions of immigrants to a so-called model city in North Africa. He called it “remigration.”
JEAN PETERS:
It's a bluntly racist idea. So there's the "real" Germans, those who have, in their blood and in their—they call it "culture" nowadays. And there are those who should go back to the countries where they will be happier because they're not real Germans, so they will never be assimilated, like here.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Martin Sellner would later confirm he had presented the idea of remigration at the meeting, but denied he spoke of deporting German citizens. Four AfD members listened to his presentation, including Roland Hartwig, an adviser to the party’s national co-leader Alice Weidel.
JEAN PETERS:
They were talking about a commission that would, once in power, be very quick, and all these things. They talked about money flowing to realize this plan. They talked about the influence agency who could get the people to be ready. And so you could feel they are thinking beyond and they are ready to get power.
MALE NEWSREADER:
Hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets across Germany.
PROTEST BANNER [in German]:
"Never again is now!"
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
The outrage follows reports that members of the Alternative for Germany party had a meeting with far-right extremists to discuss plans for mass deportation of migrants—
MALE NEWSREADER:
It is basically forcibly reverse the flow of the undesirable Germans.
PROTEST POSTER [in German]:
"Nazis out!"
PROTESTERS [chanting]:
Say it loud! Say it clear! Refugees are welcome here!
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Correctiv’s investigation about the Potsdam meeting sent shockwaves through German society.
PROTEST SPEAKER:
[Speaking German] The time to be quiet is finally over. We have to be loud!
PROTEST POSTER [in German]:
"Voting for AfD is so 1933!"
EVAN WILLIAMS:
The revelations sparked mass protests against the AfD—
PROTEST SPEAKER 2:
[Speaking German] All of Hamburg hates the AfD!
EVAN WILLIAMS:
—in cities across Germany over several weeks.
KAI ARZHEIMER:
The Potsdam revelations really brought the positions of the AfD in sharp relief for many people. And it was really an extraordinary story for Germans. Because that was not just about anonymous refugees. This brought home the point that this was, at the end of the day, about friends, neighbors, family. People like you and me who happen to have a parent, grandparent who came from Turkey or from Africa or whatever.
MALE PROTESTER:
[Speaking German] I am demonstrating against the possibility that the events we all learned about in school could apparently repeat themselves.
KAI ARZHEIMER:
So that was something really reminiscent of what the Nazis did, singling out German citizens because they did not fit into the stereotype of the tall, blonde, ethnically German guy whose family hadn't moved in 500 years. And that created outrage on a large scale.
PROTEST CROWD:
[Singing in German] Defend yourselves. Resist against fascism in this country. Stay strong together, stay strong together.
ANN-KATRIN MÜLLER:
The demonstrations really, really shook the AfD. Because the narrative of the AfD was always, in the last couple years, that they are the party for the people. That they bring out the people to the streets. Now, suddenly, the demonstrations against the AfD were much bigger, much, much bigger.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Under pressure, the AfD said it had no organizational or financial links to the Potsdam meeting, and that the plan to forcibly deport German citizens was not party policy.
Alice Weidel dismissed the adviser who had attended. But she also attacked the reporters who’d broken the story.
ALICE WEIDEL:
[Speaking German] It is scandalous for left-wing activists to use Stasi-like psychological warfare tactics to spy on a private meeting of respectable citizens.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
It was shortly after the Potsdam revelations that I visited the AfD heartland of Thuringia to interview Björn Höcke.
FEMALE AfD CAMPAIGNER:
[Speaking German] Right-wing is such an overused label, these days. It’s applied to anyone who isn’t left-leaning.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Despite the backlash, the AfD was still leading in the polls, meaning Höcke could soon become prime minister of the state.
FEMALE AfD CAMPAIGNER:
[Speaking German] I think we offer answers to the questions that concern many people.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
If the AfD wins power in the September elections, it could gain control on the state level of the police and domestic intelligence, and funding for refugee support and public media.
At a campaign event in the town of Leinefelde, Höcke was the main attraction. One of his first targets was the Correctiv investigation.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Dear friends, this is another clear indication of a damaged democracy, when private meetings are spied on. If we, as the AfD, governed here, then the private sphere would once again become private. And the state or semi-state institutions would need to stay out of it.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
He then turned to the issue of remigration.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Remigration. We are interested in ensuring that those people who have immigrated to Germany, who have not gained a foothold here, who rely primarily on welfare and are a burden on our state, and who have no legal right to asylum, go back to their home country as quickly as possible. And that can be enforced.
If we, as the AfD, govern in Thuringia, we will turn Erfurt Airport into a deportation airport. [applause]
In recent years, we have seen a type of immigration that hasn't been good for our country. Above all, from people with an Islamic background who have a completely different set of values from ours, from countries where the law of the fist still applies, where might makes right.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Höcke denies that if the AfD came to power it would forcibly deport people of immigrant background who already have German citizenship. But he says that under the AfD, immigrants who have not "assimilated" into German society would be "encouraged" to leave.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Remigration is a natural thing. And of course we'll need to explore options, perhaps offering financial incentives, to ensure that people who do not contribute to Germany’s economy and prosperity are encouraged to return to their home countries. We are far too feeble and too lax in the the way we are dealing with migrants who do not adapt here. The risk exists, the danger is already real, that we’ll see parallel societies in Germany. They already exist, and these parallel societies must be dismantled. And that is also a goal of the AfD.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
To some, Höcke’s rhetoric about minorities recalls Germany’s darkest days.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
He uses stereotypes. He uses his racism. He uses his Nazi talk. He uses his revisionist ideas. And all together, all these statements are basically against the very principles of our federal constitution.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
But Höcke’s supporters in Thuringia rejected the charge that his rhetoric echoes the Nazis.
WOMAN AT AfD RALLY:
[Speaking German] I won't let anyone call me a Nazi. I have nothing against people who come here who are genuinely seeking refuge from war and displacement. They are all very welcome, but we shouldn't be welcoming criminals. And that's my opinion.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Some people say that the AfD is connected to the far right. They are connected to neo-Nazis. Are you worried that by supporting the AfD you are bringing Nazism back?
WOMAN AT AfD RALLY:
[Speaking German] A strict "no" to that. And that is clearly being fueled by the media.
FEMALE AfD SUPPORTER:
[Speaking German] I'd like an autograph, please.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Höcke told me that if he wins power in Thuringia, he intends to radically reform the state’s domestic intelligence agency, which continues to monitor him and his party.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] The government is trying to undermine the opposition, hence us, the AfD, by using secret service tactics. The secret service is being abused in Thuringia. And that will no longer happen.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
Mr. Höcke said very clearly, if he becomes prime minister or in charge in Thuringia—after the next state elections in September, possible—first thing he's doing is going to fire me. The question would be, how is my domestic intelligence then working when probably the next head of the domestic intelligence in Thuringia is a right-wing extremist, announced and put into place by the very prime minister, Björn Höcke, or his government? He says very openly he wants to take away this specific task of defense of democracy, which was created to fight against those enemies from inside democracy, against democracy. And I mean, that says it all.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
When I first met Katerina Koenig-Preuss back in 2021, she was investigating far-right networks operating in the shadows online. In 2024, she says the threat is out in the open, and she's focused on fighting back against the AfD in Thuringia.
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
[Speaking German] We will walk toward it and that's where we will stop. Then turn round and walk back again.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Today she’s organizing a march in support of a new refugee shelter.
PROTESTERS [chanting]:
Say it loud! Say it clear! Refugees are welcome here!
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
[Speaking German] We organized this protest because, since Wednesday, there has been an extreme right-wing protest camp here in Gera in front of a new refugee center. I believe it's important to show the people in the shelter, but also to show Gera, that there are people in solidarity with them.
[Speaking English] For people with other skin color, you see that they have migration background, in some parts of Thuringia it's no more safe for them. And they told me that people spit up in front of them. And not just one time—that it happens two, three, seven, 10 times. That the bus doesn't stop when there are just migrants at the bus station—little kids, like 8, 9 years old from Syria. It's a racist hate what they face.
PROTESTERS:
[Singing in German] Defend yourself against fascism in this country.
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
I'm scared what will happen if we don't stop it. Lots of them came to Germany to be in a safe place. But they are no more safe in Germany. They're not safe now. And if it goes on, I don't know what will happen to them.
PROTESTERS:
[Singing in German] To the barricades. To the barricades.
KATERINA KOENIG-PREUSS:
If we want to live in democracy in 10, 15 years, we have to act now. There's no time to wait anymore. And if we let them, if we let them just a bit of power in the governments or local or in Berlin, in Germany, they'll use it, and they'll use it against their enemies. First maybe just by cutting financial support for refugees or for democratic projects, whatever. But second, third, what's going on? What will happen? And that's why we have to stop them now. They use democracy to destroy democracy. And we have to realize that.
FEMALE NEWSREADER:
Major victories by far-right politicians across Europe—
EVAN WILLIAMS:
In summer 2024, far-right parties across Europe, including the AfD, made major gains in EU elections.
MALE REPORTER:
Basically European voters have pulled the parliament to the farthest right it's ever been.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Pure wine must be poured and served to our fellow German citizens. This immigration is destroying our social systems.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
If Höcke and the AfD win power in Thuringia, it would be the first time a far-right party has controlled a German state since the Nazis.
For Stephan Kramer, that would be the final straw.
STEPHAN KRAMER:
If the AfD gets into a governmental responsibility, if they are the ones being in charge, I'm leaving the country, and I'm not saying that easily. I've been living all my life in Germany. I'm raised in Germany. I'm a reserve officer in Germany. I'm fighting for this democracy. This is my home. But once this first step takes place, that's my red line.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
Why not just move to another part of Germany if they're in Thuringia?
STEPHAN KRAMER:
Because I'm saying if it starts in one state, it will go on in others. We Germans seem to have a cultural problem with reading, understanding and listening what dictators are saying, writing and doing. When Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, people said, "Oh, come on." For God's sake, read! Listen! Understand! Take it for real what they say, because most of the time they do what they say.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
You continue to have these associations with the far right, and that's what people are worried about. They think you're going to restrict the press, you're going to deport people. People believe this is what's going to happen if you run the country.
BJÖRN HÖCKE:
[Speaking German] Again, democracy and the rule of law in Germany are not threatened by the AfD. Democracy and the rule of law are threatened by the government. And the AfD is trying to defend that rule of law and democracy. And that is why the danger is not emanating from the AfD.
EVAN WILLIAMS:
It's now more than four years since Armin Kurtović’s son Hamza was shot dead by a far-right gunman in the city of Hanau.
Last year, he was able to see the police investigative report. It showed that the day before the shootings, the killer had been watching videos of a far-right event where Björn Höcke was speaking.
ARMIN KURTOVIĆ:
[Speaking German] They motivated him. He shared Höcke's wild views. So you can see a whole matrix emerging here. They turn people into targets. People who work and lead a normal life. We are being turned into outsiders. I was born here in this country. My children were born here. I am a German citizen.
It's not just Höcke. There are other Höckes, as well.
All I want is for something to change, not just for me. Nothing will bring my son back, but I have three other children. There are millions of other children. Does this have to happen again?
